Neversummer Realms Forums

Official Neversummer Forums for NWN1
It is currently Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:50 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Fighter AC Suggestion
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:13 pm 
Offline
Noob

Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:15 pm
Posts: 22
I was wondering why fighters do not get a better ac against physical damage. Right now fight is a dip class but they should be a good tank class as well. It seems wrong for a dex rogue to have a better AC for melee than a basic fighter. Back in the day (yes you have to go way back to actual D&D) fighters were weak against magic but strong against physical attacks and constitution saves. Just about every other class can be played in a party and be useful at lvl40 except this class. The other classes do have their limitations but fighter does not seem to have an upside at all. I would like to see them be able to get to AC 80 - 90 (at lvl40) on their own with some sort of AC built into their lvl so the AC is permanent not some sort of temporary buff.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:31 pm 
Offline
Noob

Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:48 am
Posts: 10
Location: Third rock from a Sun
Yes, agreed if you are saying there seems to be a gap with the Melee classes wearing heavy armor...

It is better to build a dex based melee character if you are trying to get a high melee AC. I think the real issue is with the heavy armor "plate" wearing characters as they are handycapped by the lack of dex being applied to their AC modifier with little to no other advantages. You can get the same amount of base damage reduction from robes or light armor compared to heavy armor.

I too would like to see some kind of way to make "heavy armor" wearing melee charaters more viable to the NS4 server.

I would like to hear others oppinons on this subject too :)

_________________
Yabba Dabba Dooo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 5:26 pm 
Offline
PKer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:59 am
Posts: 1049
Location: Lawrence, KS
Take your huge AC rogue (non-sd) vs a str based pure fighter @ level 40.

See which one roflstomps the other.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 7:35 am 
Offline
Noob

Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:15 pm
Posts: 22


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:50 am 
Offline
PKer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:29 am
Posts: 1249
Can't resist piping in at this point... maybe Korr and I can find some way to argue!

The figter vs rogue comparison thus far is skewed. Your topic is the str fighter AC vs a dex rogue. What about a dex fighter?

One of the fighter tokens already gives +5 ab and +5 ac. Based on that alone, a fighter can get better AC than a rogue. Dex fighter vs dex rogue, same stats and the rogue gets 2 ac from tumble extra, while fighter gets 5 token. Rogue also gets no shield proficiency, so it loses 9 ac vs fighter there.

Just a breif set of calculations... you should be able to do 20 dex at creation, +10 dex for levels, 12 dex gear, and lets say no books. That's 42 dex, or +16 dex mod.

10 base ac + 16 dex + 9 tower + 6 armor + 5 nat + 5 defl + 5 dodge (or more!) + 5 token + 10 imp exp + 2 tumble + 2 armor skin
Total it up gets you at least 73 ac. The rogue gets everything EXCEPT the 5 ac token, so 67 ac with epic dodge (in imp exp mode). With probably +/-800 HP vs a rogue's +/-500.
Personally, I have a couple str pure fighters with plate and they only lose that difference of 16 dex vs 9 plate, 7 ac less. That can still get you tanking with 67 ac or more, but the damage output based on the bigger weapon types is huge.

Finesse ab on that fighter will be 30 + 16 dex + 4 feats + 5 token + 8 weapon, which is 63, and will bump to 75 with fighter weapon ab token. Rogue will be at 25 + 16 dex + 4 feats + 8 weapon, which is 52 (11 less than the base fighter ab).

Then there's the fighter rumble token, and that's an 'I WIN' button usually (it will be in this fight).

Fighters get a million feats and skill points are almost always abundant when you have imp exp, so you take healing skill and it's very effective.

Barbarians are the toe-to-toe melee'rs. That token will beat a rogue also (will save).

Overall, I think most would agree that a pure rogue is probably the worst build on the server.

_________________
Death Dealers ::DD::
Laufer - Gemetzel - Force - Little Fist - Egil - Torture - Hatshepsu - Nemesis - Hierophant - Supernaut - Flesh Hound - Insurrection - Antithesis - Dead of Winter - Volcanus 2000


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 2:28 pm 
Offline
Relic Raider

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:55 pm
Posts: 820

_________________
Twig (TSS) - Twig [CLAD] - Twigs -Fury- - SyNfully Rotted Twig - Twig'lee -Down Under- - Twig'zilla

Fergus Glonshire [FoN] - Sakij Lovac [FoN] - Zatharus Rivermoon (TSS) - Bumble (TSS) - Body built for SyN


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:40 pm 
Offline
PKer

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:00 pm
Posts: 1046
Yeah, any time you chose str over dex you sacrifice AC for more damage. Almost any build is going to gain 5-10 ac just by switching to being dex based, possibly more depending on what races you switch out.

Bargeld's AC calculation for pure fighter dexers is also has a few mistakes and is significantly lower than what is possible from a pure fighter. pure fighters have an abundance of epic feats, so fitting 4 great dex feats is probably pretty reasonable, so +18 dex would be easy. Pure fighters can get up to +4 tumble AC, not +2, and being a dexer you can assume you are getting +2 ac from blinding speed. Also, you can use the githzerai race for a quick +4 ac. If you factor in the dodge feat and you are up to 76 AC vs your current target, and that is without IE entirely. Throw on a dex book for the sake of argument and you are at 77 AC

Turn on IE mode and you are up to a really easy 87 AC that doesn't rely on buffs like divine shield.

This hypothetical build is also at +16 dodge currently, so if you manage to get a pure bard buff, 81 ac without IE or 91 ac in IE mode is completely possible. This makes the dexer pure fighter one of the better AC tanks when you consider that you have shield damage reduction, a good amount of HP, a decent AB, a nice pvp disable, and you don't need to manage many short duration buffs to retain those stats. It isn't a perfect build by any means, damage is probably isn't very impressive, and they have all the drawbacks of being a non-caster with low will saves, but as far as just being an AC tank is pvm goes, this is going to do well. Some other specialized builds can get even better ACs, but they typically have some other notable drawbacks like low AB, low HP, or poor damage reduction.


Really the simple reason why Str based pure fighters are still more popular is because of the pvp uses of the pure fighter rumble token. Going str based makes the token nearly impossible to resist, and two-handed str based damage is enough to kill anything that hasn't invested in significant extra damage reduction. In the case of a dexer pure fighter, the rumble token isn't always an "instant win" button simply because the build doesn't always do enough damage to outright kill someone in the round they are prone.

Though i do think it is a mistake to say that str based pure fighters have no upside in pvm. They are quite simply the best when it comes to getting high AB and Damage in settings where there is a cleric and bard available. There are a few high level boss fights where just having enough damage output to overcome the bosses AC, DR, and regeneration is a challenge, and that is where high AB and high damage hitters come into play. The trick is that you need to play your damage reduction smart. You probably need to build in epic damage reduction as well as some energy resist feats as well as playing your armor and shield use smart to survive. I think the easiest way to tell the difference between a "newbie" player and a veteran player is how they prepare and switch out their damage reduction items on the fly so they are always using the best possible armor and shield combinations available for them for every specific situation. A smart player using IA armors and shields is going to do much better than a new player using whatever the "coolest" or "rarest" armors that they have, because those armors are no good if they don't have the right physical damage reductions for the situation.

_________________
Sebastian (TSS) Doc - Rufio of (TSS) - Dagr (TSS)
Raijin {FoN} - Arcadia {FoN} - Geb {FoN}


Last edited by Rufio on Fri May 10, 2013 4:17 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:07 pm 
Offline
PKer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:22 am
Posts: 1439
So there?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 6:59 pm 
Offline
PKer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:29 am
Posts: 1249
Rufio is correct, i was shooting low just for the sake of versatility and not picking any races or special feats, just the basics.

And just to add... that 91 ac dex fighter is at least an 82-83 ac str fighter.

_________________
Death Dealers ::DD::
Laufer - Gemetzel - Force - Little Fist - Egil - Torture - Hatshepsu - Nemesis - Hierophant - Supernaut - Flesh Hound - Insurrection - Antithesis - Dead of Winter - Volcanus 2000


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:06 pm 
Offline
PKer

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:00 pm
Posts: 1046
Yeah, making something a githzerai and slapping IE on it is a good way to really inflate AC scores on anything. At least in the case of a pure fighter, you've got enough AB to use IE without totally killing your offense.

_________________
Sebastian (TSS) Doc - Rufio of (TSS) - Dagr (TSS)
Raijin {FoN} - Arcadia {FoN} - Geb {FoN}


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:49 pm 
Offline
Looking for group
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 5:21 pm
Posts: 106


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 9:01 am 
Offline
Noob

Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:15 pm
Posts: 22
A dex fighter can get to a decent AC but it seems like there should be room for a str/con fighter in full plate to be a viable melee toon at lvl40. I am still some what new to the game and I still have much to learn and I have not seen all of the exploits that have happened in the past so some of my suggestions may be a bit silly. I always enjoy learning from the experienced players that take the time to reply. My toons are getting better... a little anyways :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 5:10 pm 
Offline
PKer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:29 am
Posts: 1249
Mike, the key piece that is being left out of the equation is damage output. That same str fighter with 8 or 10 less ac than the dex version isn't really meant to be an AC tank. The purpose is high AB so it doesn't miss on attack rolls and then hit for high damage. Give that sucker a 2H weapon like talisid flail, purifier, or the new Gith greatsword and you will be critting in the 200's every time and base damage will be usually 55 or so at a minimum. The idea for that build is to kill your enemy before they kill you... and do it quickly. There's no point in trying to dance around like a fencing contest with the str fighter. The idea is to run up, rumble your opponent to the floor, then get 5 free attacks. That should drop them by at least 300hp with no crits, and with even 1 crit, you are at 450 output. By the time they get up, they will run away if they are smart.

I can understand the desire for a dex fighter as a PvM tank, but that's just not the role they need to play. They will still function in that role pretty well in a group with healers, but there are better builds for that then a pure dex fighter.

_________________
Death Dealers ::DD::
Laufer - Gemetzel - Force - Little Fist - Egil - Torture - Hatshepsu - Nemesis - Hierophant - Supernaut - Flesh Hound - Insurrection - Antithesis - Dead of Winter - Volcanus 2000


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 5:21 pm 
Offline
Absentee Ballot Dev
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:09 am
Posts: 2411
Dex fighters are pretty damn amazing. You can get some insane base damage out of a whip w/ Warlord's Might, and horrifyingly high AC, with a still rather good AB and HP.

Equally, STR fighters have /the/ hardest disable in the game.

STR fighters can also build for a reasonable AC or a high DR - which makes them somewhat bulky.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 9:05 pm 
Offline
Spamalot
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 8:31 pm
Posts: 676


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group