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 Post subject: HiPS, Stun and Dev Crit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:15 pm 
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We've finally got a nice up to date nwnx, it seems pretty stable, and that means we have ways to deal with the three titular things in the thread.

Unfortunately, we can't straight up adjust the DC of stun and keep functionality as it is. Options we have available are:

- Limit hips behind some kind of cooldown (maybe scaling to SD/ranger/shifter level?)
- Limit stun fist behind some kind of cooldown (If you can't spam it to chain stun / force a lowish roll, it'd be much less of an I win button and much more of a tool)
- Turn stun fist into a generic point and click ability (i.e. it wouldn't be a 'proper' melee attack anymore, though we could still roll against AC etc.), so we'd get to change the DC, duration, etc.
- Hook dev crit to call an arbitrary script (My current favourite idea is replacing instant death with significant (50% or so) physical damage vulnerability)
- Replace dev crit with a bonus to crit multiplier (i.e. WM's with dev crit scythe would hit x6)

These maybe aren't comprehensive, so if you have other ideas / suggestions, feel free to throw them in as well.

Thoughts from players, other than "please don't nerf my stunner SD, I really like winning" :)?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:42 am 
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HiPS 2x uses/day based on class levels, don't forget to give trick clerics extra uses. (ESF Illusion focuses too? Would apply to arcane focusers also.)
Stun is already a generic point & click. That seems like the best solution. Adjust DC and add cooldown.
Dev Crit could add a .5x to the base weapon multiplier. Longword base is 2, dev crit could add .5 x 2 = 1x more. Scythe is x4 base, it could add .5 x 4 = 2x more. can 3x crits add 1.5x or would it have to round down/up? Do something to nerf all scythes, like adding vulns.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:25 am 
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Bargeld wrote:
HiPS 2x uses/day based on class levels, don't forget to give trick clerics extra uses. (ESF Illusion focuses too? Would apply to arcane focusers also.)

I'm leery of giving limited uses per day, since that would also have to effect HiPSers corner sneaking (as well as either killing SDs for PVM or leaving them mostly untouched for PvP). All we can do is hook the use of the hide button, and not exclusively HiPS. Edit: I don't mind this as a good way to make intelligent use of stealth mode more rewarding (and make spamming unrewarding), I'm just unsure of how to leave it in a good place for general usage.

Bargeld wrote:
Stun is already a generic point & click. That seems like the best solution. Adjust DC and add cooldown.

At the moment stun's an attack modifier a la disarm; compare with e.g. arrow of death for turning it into a point and click (or PM touch abilities)

Bargeld wrote:
Dev Crit could add a .5x to the base weapon multiplier. Longword base is 2, dev crit could add .5 x 2 = 1x more. Scythe is x4 base, it could add .5 x 4 = 2x more. can 3x crits add 1.5x or would it have to round down/up? Do something to nerf all scythes, like adding vulns.

Don't think we can do 1.5, needs to be an int in engine probably. This could be cool (who doesn't like seeing big numbers :)), and is dead simple to do. x5 crits on e.g. handaxes, dire maces sounds pretty insane, though.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:02 am 
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mining wrote:
I'm leery of giving limited uses per day, since that would also have to effect HiPSers corner sneaking (as well as either killing SDs for PVM or leaving them mostly untouched for PvP). All we can do is hook the use of the hide button, and not exclusively HiPS. Edit: I don't mind this as a good way to make intelligent use of stealth mode more rewarding (and make spamming unrewarding), I'm just unsure of how to leave it in a good place for general usage.

Hook it to a new skill and remove it from the Hide button? (Similar to proposed Stun Fist) This would give uses for the HiPS and leave them to corner sneak forever.

mining wrote:
At the moment stun's an attack modifier a la disarm; compare with e.g. arrow of death for turning it into a point and click (or PM touch abilities)

From the player's end it is the same: Activate targeting, aim, click target, execute ability.

mining wrote:
Don't think we can do 1.5, needs to be an int in engine probably. This could be cool (who doesn't like seeing big numbers :)), and is dead simple to do. x5 crits on e.g. handaxes, dire maces sounds pretty insane, though.

Round down. This actually beefs up the usability of 2x multi weapons like swords and maces compared to 3x weapons... but only for those with dev crit. Scythe is the only thing that gets 4x + 2x. Then you nerf it!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:50 am 
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The primary problem with hips is clearing actions, just spam it enough and if they can't see you all the time, you win. We've made plenty of otherwise horrible characters to prove it. I can live with a bit of cooldown, big hit from perception firing a million times at each button press. Spells and feat from trickery are way OP enough thanks :)

I need to refresh myself on dev crit and what nwnx_weaps traps and how to make use of it.

Stun: chain stun is the problem, that's easy to address (i.e. have the stun effect just queue attack and don't bother running the stun through events). There's some research into from I forget when. Whether we want to adjust the dc or not...say one per feat instead of two.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:13 pm 
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Perhaps the HiPS issue can be solved by some kind of exponentially stacking hide/ms debuff whenever you press HiPS. I imagine it lasting a couple rounds, so that it will only really screw you over if you are spamming HiPS like a madman.

I think the issue with stun is just that the DC is too high. Epic Fortitude should be a feat you take if your build has a naturally low fort save, not a feat you really want to take on almost every build because stunning fist is a thing. I'm not sure if I like the idea of a cooldown, because I feel like a single stunner should still be able to do well vs multiple low fort toons. I like the idea of making stun feats add 1 instead of 2 to the DC.

I like the idea of (stacking) physical vuln on dev crit. I think the DC on this could be pretty high, Devastating Critical is a pretty significant investment I think. I'm also not opposed to increasing crit multiplier, but it's a bit more bland. I think the best thing here would be to just try some options and see how they work!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:04 pm 
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Lokey wrote:
The primary problem with hips is clearing actions, just spam it enough and if they can't see you all the time, you win. We've made plenty of otherwise horrible characters to prove it. I can live with a bit of cooldown, big hit from perception firing a million times at each button press. Spells and feat from trickery are way OP enough thanks :)

I need to refresh myself on dev crit and what nwnx_weaps traps and how to make use of it.

Stun: chain stun is the problem, that's easy to address (i.e. have the stun effect just queue attack and don't bother running the stun through events). There's some research into from I forget when. Whether we want to adjust the dc or not...say one per feat instead of two.


For dev crit, every time a crit's rolled we get an event; the nwnx hook then checks a feat table + weapon info and returns dev crit or not. We can also execute arbitrary nwscript if we want to.

Edit to add: Yes, this means that if we returned true always, all crits would be dev crits.
Edit to edit to add: Yes, this means that this april fools might be fun :)

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Overall, I think most would agree that a pure rogue is probably the worst build on the server.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:38 pm 
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I can see a bonus for pure fighter/barb then. The problem with the feat is caster, divine or RDD have a much easier time grabbing and using over str based mundane. A bonus for overwhelming crit can't hurt either...

In short: don't worry about the obvious. The important thing is to make more viable options, not make the best stuff better.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:31 pm 
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Regarding Stunning Fist:

I like the way the indie game Darkest Dungeon handles stuns:

http://darkestdungeon.gamepedia.com/Stun

Quote:
Some abilities of both heroes and enemies are able to stun one or more targets. When the stun is triggered at the start of the affected unit's turn, the unit's turn is skipped and a temporary buff heightening the unit's stun resistance by 40% is applied for the duration of one turn, making it harder to keep a unit stunned continuously. If the unit is successfully stunned multiple turns in a row, the stun resistance buff stacks (80%, 120%, etc.) until the unit finally gets a turn.


For nwn, would it be possible to hook a +8 fort roll if you fail a fort check vs. stunning?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:58 am 
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I'm reasonably confident that sticking a CD on will 'solve' HIPSers being a problem, because of how spot works.

You get 5 rolls / round vs their one - [0.523, 0.693, 0.776, 0.824, 0.856] are the cumulative probabilities of spotting the toon in each consecutive check where spot=hide. When you can force a rehips almost instantly, that's pretty mediocre - if you have to sit around for a round between stealth mode toggles, that's a good chance you'll be seen for most of the round (situational bonuses make this a little more of a crapshoot, of course).

Where spot > hide (say 90 vs 80, as per a low hide enemy toon), things look good too: [0.889, 0.9647, 0.987, 0.995, 0.998].

Finally, where spot < hide (say 70 vs 80, as per your 43 ranks + helm + true see helm vs mediocre sneak), you're in a kinda bad place, but you can still get some vision of them every so often (which will actually last for a round if they can't just spam HiPS to get out) [0.138, 0.228, 0.287, 0.328, 0.358] - this is, however, a situation where the hipser has the advantage and should have a good chance to win :).

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Overall, I think most would agree that a pure rogue is probably the worst build on the server.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:18 am 
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I thought it was however many spammed hide vs 5 spot checks/sec. I also seem to remember that toggling spot actively forced a spot roll, although maybe that just coincided with the next scheduled spot check.

(This would imply that in order to abuse hips, you have to spam at a rate of at least 6x/sec.)

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Detect

Quote:
Stealth checks
Player detects stealth: 5 times per second

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:25 am 
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Bargeld wrote:
I thought it was however many spammed hide vs 5 spot checks/sec. I also seem to remember that toggling spot actively forced a spot roll, although maybe that just coincided with the next scheduled spot check.

(This would imply that in order to abuse hips, you have to spam at a rate of at least 6x/sec.)

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Detect

Quote:
Stealth checks
Player detects stealth: 5 times per second


Nah, only need to hips when enemy actually indicates they've seen you (i.e. by suddenly facing exactly towards you). Without the ability to spam it's a moot point anyway; spotters will get to abuse hipsers the way nature intended.

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Overall, I think most would agree that a pure rogue is probably the worst build on the server.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Another component to HiPS being so dominant is that every non elven / non svirf subrace is automatically screwed vs hipser (except maybe aas sometimes).
Passive detect mode is generally complete crap (both mechanically and in practice), so give everyone keen senses and compensate elves and svirfs with +4 spot (applied via bonus skill at 40 so it doesn't count to +50 cap). This would be a pretty significant change (i.e. needs a lot of thought), but leaves HiPSers with miserable hide (21 ranger w/ a tower shield, for example) in spotting range for a suitably buffed up melee character; also extreme svirf spotters would probably be extremely hard for hipsers to deal with.

Discuss?

(oh, and nerf aas aura; as much as I love it, anything more than -5-10 or so would be insane if they had keen senses).

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Overall, I think most would agree that a pure rogue is probably the worst build on the server.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Honestly, I don't have a problem with current HiPS mechanics and stealth/detect values. The main reason is that there is a trade-off for super high HiPS vs damage. A currently 'untouchable' HiPSer is very limited in the amount of burst damage they can do. Sure they will win the long game vs 95% of their enemies, but that's basically an arena-only situation. In the real world, the hipser is slower and can't catch their prey if it decides to run away. And if they do try to pursue, then it becomes a cat and mouse hips game that can actually be fun and skillful (meta-mechanically).

It all comes down to the build you are playing at the moment of the battle. If you have a spotter and are upset you can't kill that hipser, chances are that you have effectively countered it anyway because it won't kill anyone else. If you are a high damage melee, then you actually have a better chance of getting the kill by playing the cat and mouse game. If you are a scythe wm glass cannon, you might get that one opportunity that double crits and you win. If you are that barbarian and they are slinging you to death over 20 rounds... run away. Pride makes you lose in that situation. If you are an intermediate build like a dex BG with tower and rapier or a caster druid or sorc bg, etc. You can always outrun them.

The only other time I see hips as a problem is when you have to raid for a relic vs a very high hips defender. You aren't in a position to run away and their mere presence prevents resting and preparation as the raid progresses. It poses a ridiculous situation... either you always have a top-tier 5% spotter in your raiding party or just hope they don't defend with HiPS.

But that's the only situation I've seen where HiPS is really a problem. It's a hard defense counter if you have no spot in your raiding party. Every other situation is either 1) easy defense vs HiPS by picking a top tier spotter (everyone should have one) or 2) you got caught in the wilds in a dogfight and you just have to run away or play the cat and mouse.

Also there is more to a hips build than just mechanics and numbers and meta-play. Dispelling and blinding by trick cleric hipsers can up that game even more. But they aren't going to kill you in 2 rounds either. Add in unlimites TS, CC, & amplify scrolls and it actually starts to favor the mediocre spotters. This is also why AO and NC job tokens are considered ridiculous... they cant be dispelled. So even a mediocre, non/low-caster level CoT or RDD can sustain an effective spot/listen vs a trick cleric or dispel scrolling HiPSer.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:26 pm 
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I guess I can reveal all the secrets nowadays :lol:

The only spotters that I would consider top-tier are div focused zen cleric AAs and any sort of div focused mid+ Wis based cleric.

The only HiPSers that are top-tier are ghost trick clerics with reasonable caster lvls or that stupid lesser drow form one.

Top-tier for both means 120+ on the char sheet. That's pretty elite if you can get yourself there without any outside assistance. Adding in party buffs is breaking the rules.

Fix stun and it will fix the problem of hips stunners.

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