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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:24 am 
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Hi all:

EDIT: I re-read this today and decided that THIS line is most relevant; everything else is I wrote here is blah blah...if you generally agree with the line quoted below, then I think we are on the 'same page'.

Quote:
this topic can become a massive mess of a headache , id rather keep it as simple as possible....it would be best to leave a lot of this concept to common sense, and address individual issues IF AND WHEN they arise.


it is no secret that I play multiple accounts at the same time, I have since 2005.... :) ...and I am not the only one!!

I realize things have changed a bit since 'back then' ; and from what I have gathered the following is NOT appropriate in PVP encounters: ...and by PVP encounters this would include an offensive relic raid , a relic defense, random world PVP , etc..etc... etc...

PLEASE correct any statement that I will mention below: I do not want to upset anyone / disrupt anyone's gamelplay, etc...etc....I intend to gather as much information here as possible.

For someone who is dual-logged (or triple logged...etc...or lets say MULTI-LOGGED) , the following are accurate rules in a PVP enviornment:

* a Dual Logged player must not use multiple characters to engage in any type of PVP at the same time in any shape, matter, or form. *** (exception see below)

* a Dual Logged player must NOT keep an idle secondary character nearby to aide in 'rezing' , or act as a backup character for a given PVP event in case a given players' main character dies. (this is somewhat covered in the NS4 commandments)....the term nearby i would interpret as within a few minutes run from where a said primary character is.... in other words , a secondary character should be NOWHERE NEAR a primary character when involving PVP.

* a dual logged player must NOT use an additional account to log onto in order to 'venge kill' another player. (this topic was covered a few years back as well).

-------------------------------

*** ---(see above) as for the concept of one physical person using multiple toons to engage in PVP at once, it has been described to me that it IS permissible for a player to use multiple toons when a said player is at a numerical disadvantage. For example, If I am raiding against, defending against, and/or engaging in random pvp against TWO (or more) enemy toons (for example), and I am the ONLY one engaging in combat against them , THEN and only then is it permissible for me to 'even the odds' by using multiple logins for PVP.

The same would apply for a different numerical scenario --- etc..... etc...etc....

Simply put, one must not use dual-logins to give themselve(s) a numerical advantage against an enemy force.

---------------------------------------------

I think i covered everything I wanted to with that above... however, this brings forth 'exceptions' , and 'grey areas'

WHAT IF: ........

1) I am walking along the road with dual-logged characters side by side, and I am ATTACKED by an enemy player.
(i would imagine that i could behave as required to defend my characters, since I did not demonstrate the intent to engage in PVP with multiple-logged characters.)

1.A) same scenario --- and depending on the answer, does the level of MY characters, versus the level of the enemy character(s) make a difference in this ruling?

2. I leave a secondary character, logged in (or logged out) nearby to my primary character, but I do not use this secondary character for ANYTHING, UNTIL the odds change? -- for example, I am defending my relic, and I am fighting off a single enemy player (1 - on - 1 ) ...and suddenly a 2nd enemy player enters the area/zone ..... would it be permissible for me to keep my secondary character nearby and ONLY use it if the odds change ? ( i would agree that this would be difficult to monitor, and would rely heavily on the common-sense/morality of the individual who is dual-logged).\

3. somewhat similar to #1 , for example: I have two characters logged into the game --- one is standing idle in the middle of nowhere , and is attacked AND is killed. The other character is farting around in ave, or whatnot....and was already logged in..... --- ; is it permissible for me to go rescue myself? ...and potentially find myself involved in a pvp encounter? (this may fall under the venge-log concept, however technically there was no re-logging performed, both characters were online already).

4. a general example : I am raiding with a few other individuals , and in the middle of the battle there is a change in advantage , lets say I have a total of three toons in my party fighting against five enemy toons.... all of a sudden three of the enemy toons either log off, run off with relics, etc...etc..etc.... now my team has an advantage --- we now have three toons against only two enemy toons..... and lets say two of our three toons are dual-logged toons belonging to one player .....is that dual-logged player obligated/required to now drop/dismiss one of his two toons to balance the PVP encounter? ..etc.. etc...

...........

I think ill leave it at that for now , some of these topics might seem too detailed, etc...but as i said, i need clarification on the dual-logging topic ; i have no problem with a change in rules , etc... i just need to be sure i understand them ; as it as been said, ignorance is no excuse , and I want to eliminate any ignorance that i might have!

Overall, and I base this on what I have seen from our active population ---- my fellow players, both friend and foe, overall seem to have common-sense, and they would know when and when not to use multiple-logged characters in a pvp environment ; I just want to bring the topic up to be sure no one runs into any DM related issues down the road :)

Please feel free to respond and/or contact me in game with any responses, ideas, or even any other scenarios you think of ,

unfortunately this topic can become a massive mess of a headache , id rather keep it as simple as possible....it would be best to leave a lot of this concept to common sense, and address individual issues IF AND WHEN they arise.

I would appreciate understanding and flexibility from the DM team on these topics going forward into the near future, in order for everyone to understand what the 'deal is' .

A lot of what NS4 functions off of is common-sense based.... there is not supervision 24/7 and players are expected to act within certian boundaries ; and for the most part of the time I have played on Neversummer, people are great when it comes to following the rules, and using level heads ....etc...


..............

short version: You can not use multi-logged characters in pvp , unless the odds are against you..... that is a very straightfoward statement, but for someone like me who scrutinzes and examines things as part of my IRL job , I find myself thinking of exceptions/scenarios to such a statement .....

Thank you all for taking the time to read and/or reply to this inquiry,

it is now far past my usual bedtime , see everyone over the weekend :D

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Last edited by King Fatzo on Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:43 am 
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I'm not a DM and have no actual say on the 'rules' but I will share what I have gleaned from discussion so far.

First off, set aside a half hour or an hour and read this:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1003519

My input for your post:
It's up to each specific DM how they want to deal with it, so don't expect hardcore consistency.

Dual logging is not yet addressed in the actual NS Commandments. It's not fully a rule, more of an etiquette. See above statement. I think it should be in the commandments.

My opinion, numbers or not, dual logging in PvP should be avoided as best as possible. A basic statement can be made... if you have control of 2 toons, you have an advantage over a player who doesn't. That's not fair play. Just because the teams are 5v1 doesn't mean you get to even the odds. Often, relic and pvp occurs out on the road, as an interception or unexpected encounter and its 1v1 or some other legitimate odds. Just because its 5v1 overall doesn't make it right for you to run around with 2, hoping to intercept that guy running the relic solo.

If you are running down the road, side by side and someone attacks you, they know what they are getting into because they know they are attacking 2 toons, regardless of their controller. Defend yourself with both. If you bring a second toon to a fight with the hopes of exacting your revenge... well, thats a venge logged toon, regardless of when it logged in. Just bide your time, let your dispatcher leave the area, then come revive yourself with your second toon. At this point, I feel like I'm getting more specific than necessary. It needs to be easy, common sense, like you said.

If it gives you an advantage that the other players don't have, and they didn't initiate the fight with you, then don't do it.
(also, "they are doing it, why can't I?" Is not a valid part of this equation. 2 wrongs don't make a right. But 3 lefts do.)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:09 pm 
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Bargeld wrote:

Dual logging is not yet addressed in the actual NS Commandments. It's not fully a rule, more of an etiquette. See above statement. I think it should be in the commandments.

My opinion, numbers or not, dual logging in PvP should be avoided as best as possible. A basic statement can be made... if you have control of 2 toons, you have an advantage over a player who doesn't. That's not fair play. Just because the teams are 5v1 doesn't mean you get to even the odds. Often, relic and pvp occurs out on the road, as an interception or unexpected encounter and its 1v1 or some other legitimate odds. Just because its 5v1 overall doesn't make it right for you to run around with 2, hoping to intercept that guy running the relic solo.

If you are running down the road, side by side and someone attacks you, they know what they are getting into because they know they are attacking 2 toons, regardless of their controller. Defend yourself with both. If you bring a second toon to a fight with the hopes of exacting your revenge... well, thats a venge logged toon, regardless of when it logged in. Just bide your time, let your dispatcher leave the area, then come revive yourself with your second toon. At this point, I feel like I'm getting more specific than necessary. It needs to be easy, common sense, like you said.

(also, "they are doing it, why can't I?" Is not a valid part of this equation. 2 wrongs don't make a right. But 3 lefts do.)


Aye I have to agree with everything you said, including the fine print :lol: ; using common sense , and proper, fair behavior should end with a overall well balanced result! ;

also in regards to the thread you linked above, i remember stumbling across that about a month ago when i was doing a broad topic search ; my eyes crossed and i fell off my chair after about two minutes.... and after glancing over that thread again I don't think its worth going into that much detail all over again with my post...

I'm going to take a very conservative, logical approach on the matter, and let the gaming and ale consumption continue onward from here :D

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NS4: .:†LB:. (Hand) / =kSt= / [PWND] (2005-Present)
WOW: Sublime Guild (Officer) , Lightninghoof Server (2006-Present)
p\/\//\/ed! SPAM!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:46 pm 
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Really? Nothing has changed in dual or triple logging toons. Fatso from 2005 nothing has changed. Their is the "Golden Rules" and no stipulation has been Implace. The rules from before are the rules of NOW.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:39 am 
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Now why does this topic always get over scrutinized?
Dual logging is not illegal in regular day to day game play. This includes pvp or pvm. The second that it becomes illegal is when it in essence broaches the NS4 commandments. To clarify where I have taken action is when the dual logger utilized their multibox abilities to “veng” log or kill.
If second toon is not logged in at the time and said player logs it in in order to exact some revenge of any nature = veng log (i.e. bootable)
If second toon is logged when raiding just because you keep one of your toons in does not mean that the cool down time for changing raiding toons does not apply to the second or even third toon. If one does that = illegal (i.e. bootable)
When defending it has always been the rule that you may change out toons as much as you wish (but this if for relic defending only!)
So in summation if while roaming up the mountain, two toons come up on your 1 (they are obviously dual logged) they can, in essence, practice normal pvp actions and kill ya. Can that be considered by the community as a bit ‘o’ cheese? Sure. Should any player with a fair amount of skill be able to out maneuver and out play one that is attempting to focus on operating 2+ accounts at the same time while engaging in pvp? I say yes to that as well.
Hell put out a hit on the one that did it to you and enjoy the hunt. Remember all….This Realm is one at war. Get in there and fight for Christ’s sake!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:48 am 
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Quote:
Can that be considered by the community as a bit ‘o’ cheese?

stinky, rotten moldy cheese... :roll:




:twisted:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:48 pm 
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Focus on the one not moving, depending on what class your toon plays, pretty simple to defend. The dual (or triple) loggers buff and stand back while the "one" comes for you. I' m like really? If you can dispell and move quickly go for the standing idle ones.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:23 pm 
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Some players (*cough* Korr *cough*) leave them multiple maps away...

Regardless; the point is common sense here.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:46 am 
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mmm. i 've had a dual log booted recently from a new DM who doesnt tolerate dual logging.

Situation. Toon B in spawn point buffing Toon A to defend/raid
Never has been an issue before. Actually learned this technik from Fatzo many many years ago. Its been a rampant technik for 8+ years. New Dm doesnt like it other including devs dont give a mule.

My 2 cents from 2 days of actual play in the past year. And someones been raping my toons of gear. Do it again and we'll track you down jerkwads

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:19 am 
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Alkapwn wrote:
My 2 cents from 2 days of actual play in the past year. And someones been raping my toons of gear. Do it again and we'll track you down jerkwads


That's funny :x (not really) someone has pilfered gear from some of my toons as well...


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:57 pm 
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Sounds like we have a bigger issue...pilfering items from someone's other toons. This should be in a different topic, but since it is brought up here...I thought the DM's can find the good for nothing stealing thieves.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:58 pm 
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disable your account security at your risk of having randoms log into your account?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:00 pm 
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make complex passwords ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:44 pm 
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King Fatzo wrote:
make complex passwords ;)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:01 am 
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mining wrote:
King Fatzo wrote:
make complex passwords ;)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

mmm yeah ... I already know fatzo's alt logins Keys. gotta love crack serials... :D
*edit *... well at least one of them

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