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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:40 am 
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Before 10 people jump on me with "this has been discussed to death" I'm sure it has, but I'm also finding that wherever it is on here is buried in old posts at this point, and that many of the relatively new players have no idea what the guidelines are for this.

What I'd like is confirmation that Que Breaking with HiPS (by that I mean making your opponent stop attacking and go flat footed, even if they can see/hear you 100%) is hardcoded into NWN and cannot be removed without simply removing HiPS entirely.

I had a discussion yesterday with another player who told me in his own words: "I've never denied exploiting HiPS" in this manner and that it was his hope it would be nerfed. This player claimed that this tactic was fixed on other servers he played on, and compared this tactic to using the RK job items before they were nerfed (whatever :roll: ). So I would just like to know if this is indeed something that could be fixed and hasn't been, and if it's not fixable then is deliberate Que Breaking tactic (an "exploit" in the players own words) an acceptable tactic on NS4.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:01 am 
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Using HiPS to evade attacks/spells is acceptable when legitimate. IE someone is getting ready to cast spells at you, someone is shooting at you with a bow and you attempt to HiPS in order to evade the attacks/attempt at an attack, is acceptable.

Standing still and hitting stealth mode key over and over coming in and out of HiPS as fast as you can in order to clear action queues, is exploiting.

That's how its been explained to me.

In the end its a judgement call by DM's and in the past, present, and I'm sure future it will always be that way.

When Menelandro is fully buffed he has 123 listen. There hasn't been a character yet that can reliably hide from him, yet every time someone makes a HiPS attempt, if he's trying to cast at the target, or if he's close to the HiPSer and trying to cast on himself, it'll interrupt the cast. IF you're trying to make ranged attacks against a HiPSer and they HiPS it'll clear your action queue. Do I blame the HiPSer, no. You really can't, the majority of HiPSers' surivability is built around their ability to hide. What else are they supposed to do? It's like the debate about clerics healing themselves, its part of the build and is what they use to keep themselves alive in a fight.

However, I still think that HiPSing is the ultimate cheese and wouldn't shed a single tear if it was changed. I do know that the devs have worked on fixes for the issues involved with HiPS but the fact that we don't have a fix just goes to show how difficult a fix is.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:23 am 
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cRaZy8or5e wrote:
When Menelandro is fully buffed he has 123 listen. There hasn't been a character yet that can reliably hide from him, yet every time someone makes a HiPS attempt, if he's trying to cast at the target, or if he's close to the HiPSer and trying to cast on himself, it'll interrupt the cast. IF you're trying to make ranged attacks against a HiPSer and they HiPS it'll clear your action queue.


Exactly what was happening, and also with listen. If he'd been trying to hide, I'd understand, but it was very frustrating when they knew perfectly well I could see them and still spammed hips to keep me from attacking. When I can see a player perfectly, walk right up to them and attack, yet this um "tactic" keeps me from being able to attack, and describes it to me as an exploit, it seems a bit much. This has happened twice this week, once with the player I mentioned, and once with another who had virtually no hide at all (I could see the other person with no buffs at all, not even song)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:54 am 
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While I'm the player you mentioned calling it an exploit and still using it, I'll say one thing, spotting is a very imprecise thing, and as I understand it spotters (or listeners) get their skill + a d20 roll vs my skill.

EDIT: And second, I wasn't doing it to keep you from attacking, I was doing it to get you flatfooted for sneak attacks. If I wanted to keep you from attacking I'd pull a Nog and just keep mashing it rapidly to prevent you from even getting close to me.

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Last edited by Shamedmonkey on Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:30 am 
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There is the link to the nwn wiki detect article as it is probably relevant to this topic

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Detect

Code:
Passive (default) mode
Trap detection radius: 3.33m (~11ft)
Trap detection rate: 6 seconds (every round)
Trap detection roll: d20 + full skill (in version 1.68, probably a bug)
Spot/listen roll: d10 + half skill

Active (detect) mode
Trap detection radius: 6.66m (~22ft)
Trap detection rate: 3 seconds (twice per round)
Trap detection roll: d20 + full skill
Spot/listen roll: d20 + full skill

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:48 am 
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Shamed, To be clear, (We were discussing it on voice comm), I don't think he intended to name names or that you did anything wrong. I think its more of a, "Is this broken or working as intended?" if so, "Can this be fixed?"

It is very frustrating to play a 'listener'. Even worse if its a listener without keen senses. I don't really think the issue is so much HIPS spamming as it is an issue of any hide attempt clears the queue on a listener - regardless of whether they successfully hid or not. That's the part that is broken.

Laters,

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:52 am 
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Chernobyl_Glow wrote:
Shamed, To be clear, (We were discussing it on voice comm), I don't think he intended to name names or that you did anything wrong. I think its more of a, "Is this broken or working as intended?" if so, "Can this be fixed?"

It is very frustrating to play a 'listener'. Even worse if its a listener without keen senses. I don't really think the issue is so much HIPS spamming as it is an issue of any hide attempt clears the queue on a listener - regardless of whether they successfully hid or not. That's the part that is broken.

Laters,

- Glow -


He very much intended to say that I was wrong. I agree completely, I've said it many times, something that sees me 100% of time and has a higher skill than I do even without the d20 roll should not get its queue cleared. Except, there's no real way to police it because it happens as much inadvertently as it does on purpose. And I know the feeling of being owned by HiPSters. Do you remember that I used to play RK before we even had a keen senses race?

EDIT 2 (man I gotta start thinking of these things before I post them): I've always been a supporter of keeping HiPSters nerfed. For instance, Dragon form should have never had it's true true sight removed, implode shouldn't have been nerfed against HiPsters either. There's a lot of things that have made HiPSters seem overwhelmingly powerful since the wipe (you can't clear the queue of a true seeing dragon running at you, trust me, it's a very painful experience >_>).

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:07 am 
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I think we all agree that HiPS keeps getting more powerful, especially with the implode change (no idea why that happened) and trust me, with 2 40's in AO which is the only faction without SDs I feel it. Glow is right, however, it's much less about you than about getting a clarification on what's acceptable on the use of it. I have both spotters and hiders at level 40, so I certainly see both sides of this issue, and I'd like to hear what the official views on it are, as well as clarification on my understanding that the que break is hardcoded and cannot be fixed.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:21 am 
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Shamedmonkey wrote:
He very much intended to say that I was wrong.

I'm just saying it wasn't personal. He is questioning the game engine, which (in my opinion) you use very very well. Whether it be Hide, Heal or IGMS. You play well and it’s frustrating. :)
...

Back to Hide. It's hard to be sure just reading the info on the Neverwinter Wiki. But aren't the Hide attempts "opposed" check. i.e. Hide Skill + d20 vs Spot Skill + d20. Thus, there is a lot of variability in the success of the spotter. The pivotal point being that the Hider only has to succeed ONce. The Spotter must succeed every attempt. I did the percentages a while back. They make your head hurt. But basically, unless the skill points are heavily in favor of the Spotter then it’s not a matter of whether or not a player Hides - but a matter of how many times they have to try. i.e. Spamming. If he fails, he just tries again. On average he'll only have to try 3-4 times. Are we going to say, “On your honor, if you fail to hide, wait until the next round to try again.” Impossible. Most retry immediately on a failed attempt. I figure most don’t try 5 or 6 times. But in a “right-wing” view of the world to retry at all is considered an exploit. I personally don’t think so.

- Glow -


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:36 pm 
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Come on. AO is not without SD's. You have tons of RK SD's in your ranks.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:39 pm 
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I've never found this "bug" to be really a problem with Avarice ::DD:: who has a little better than good Spot. The only time q would break is if the hips spammer actually got a valid hide. I've noticed with my listen buillds the "bug" as you might call it is still breaking q's (probably has something to do with line of SIGHT not hearing). I'm sure there's going to be more groaning when it gets "fixed" then the way it is now.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:58 pm 
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Having good listen isn't enough. Linuxpup knows how to get around the in game bugs, but isn't talking.

NWNx_events Linux makes the hide button accessible. Unfortunately other parts of nwnx in linux are cranky in certain 64bit OSs, one of which is the only one available on our host (32bit win or 64bit ubuntu vms).

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:09 pm 
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Alkapwn wrote:
I've never found this "bug" to be really a problem with Avarice ::DD:: who has a little better than good Spot. The only time q would break is if the hips spammer actually got a valid hide. I've noticed with my listen buillds the "bug" as you might call it is still breaking q's (probably has something to do with line of SIGHT not hearing). I'm sure there's going to be more groaning when it gets "fixed" then the way it is now.


With true spotters it doesn't affect them as much, just listen skill spotters. Still has cleared my spell que though if you're a spotter, and close, maybe cuz the engine is runnin a listen check along with a spot check? I don't know all the ins and outs of the engine. Had that happen where HiPS would clear the casting que on my old cleric/monk/CoT spotter from the before time in the long long ago. Maybe that's no longer valid, any feedback from spot skill AA's out there? HiPS spam clear your ranged attack que?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:10 pm 
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I want to constructively add to this discussion, but I followed the link to the old discussion and would suggest going back and reading that topic from the start, rather than re-hashing everything there. It should answer your question with Linux's first post.

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1001321

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:53 pm 
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My Spotter has 119 and Keen Senses and no it doesn't seem to clear my queue unless they actually Hide. Of course they could be successfully hiding by HIPS spamming.

Bargeld, ya that was a good thread. worth reading. even though the subject had be hashed to death a bunch of times before.

- Glow -


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