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 Post subject: Undead Control
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:49 am 
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Lord DM Supreme
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i know we have redone the spells to control undead. its very nice to finally be able to control the undead as you should have been long ago.

that being said, i'll relay this message once, to all that read the forums......

CONTROLLED UNDEAD ARE STILL NPC'S. IF IT KILLS A PLAYER, THEY LOSE XP. IF I SEE, GET A SS, OR HEAR OF SOMEONE INTENTIONALLY USING AN CONTROLLED UNDEAD NPC TO KILL ANOTHER PLAYER OR DEFEND THEIR TOWN BECAUSE THEY THINK ITS FUNNY......you'll take a nice long break :)

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 Post subject: Re: Undead Control
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:02 am 
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What if your are attacked and the controlled undead is in your party? Is the undead labeled so opponents can break off combat and run away once they see it is controlled undead and has the possibility to cause xp loss? Would continuation of said combat be considered intentional? And how does this affect the relic raiding when using NPC's to help defend?


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 Post subject: Re: Undead Control
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:50 am 
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We've tried this a few times and you don't lose xp when they are under control of the caster. Only when the caster is killed or they are released back do you lose xp. As long as they are under control they are just like a pet killing a person. Now I could understand if someone is taking them and releasing them and then letting them kill people but it's a side effect that if you kill the caster in control they will go lose and kill everybody. It's as big a hazard to the defenders as it is to the raiders.

Traps still cost people xp sometimes, are they banned as well (can't find anything posted in the forums about it)?

I let myself get killed by the pet and respawned to make sure it didn't cost xp before we ever brought them near anyone else. Here's a screen shot:
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We tried it a few times before we did anything with them to make sure. Also, if the caster looses control, they go straight for him and kill him with a vengeance. It's very dangerous getting and trying to control these guys. I've died several times just trying to get one.


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 Post subject: Re: Undead Control
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:40 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Undead Control
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:44 am 
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So is a fix underway to make controlled undead deal death as a normal summons? (so no xp loss)

And, why not fix it so that if control is broken for any reason, the undead immediately dies.(same result for a normal summons) This solves the potential problem of people deliberately cutting loose high lvl undead in cities and such, to cause unneccessary deaths.

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 Post subject: Re: Undead Control
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:46 am 
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I guess I don't understand Tep's statement then. I thought what he was saying was that if you use a controlled undead to kill another player you will be punished. But what you are saying is if you intentionally release it in order to cause xp loss then you will be punished. If that's it then I completely agree with you. It's just like beating someone who is fighting mobs down to nothing and letting the mobs kill them, or the assassins who think it's funny to come paralyze you for 10 minutes in dwarfs and let the dwarfs come kill you (or even train them on you).

I'm more than happy to follow the rules, I just want to be clear on them. We are allowed to use the controlled undead in pvp and relic defense, but we must do our best to prevent players from losing xp. Is this correct? If it's a grey area or you want more time to test it that's fine. I'll be happy to help in any way I can and to avoid using them in pvp if that's what is needed.

Also these are not like dm spawns and they will despawn if the map is respawned.

I would also say that most people will res you if you get killed by an epic defender and getting killed by one of these is no different in my eyes. If someone lets me know that they think they might lose xp if they respawn I will gladly raise them (most of the time), and kill them myself so they don't lose xp. People just need to ask because in the fury of battle it's hard to know.


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 Post subject: Re: Undead Control
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:11 am 
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I know this might sound retarded, but what is the difference between someone taking control of a high level undead and releasing it around lowbies going up the mountain and the same individual taking his lvl 40 toon and "clearing" the mountain and then bragging about it on shout?


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 Post subject: Re: Undead Control
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:13 am 
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Developer
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Currently, when you release this summon, it returns to its NPC state, and dying from it causes XP loss.

Dying from players does not, even level 40th ones on the mountain. There are also other limitations in place for PvP interaction. No such limits exist for NPCs.


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 Post subject: Re: Undead Control
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:09 am 
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Make it die instantly instead of reverting back to NPC? :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Undead Control
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:30 am 
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I have been elsewhere where there was a timer on the beast out of control where it would "wander back" to its place of origin (ie, return to home zone). Gave time for the beast to exact revenge on the band that dominated it before it became bored and went home. In the alternative, perhaps make the beast have a vendetta against the dominator and have it seek him out across maps until killed or redominated.

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 Post subject: Re: Undead Control
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:55 am 
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From my limited understanding of scripting it should be possible to flag a dominated creature as no-xp-loss on kill.

I did lose xp from Coyote's corpse reaper the other night while solo raiding LA, which is why I stopped. (and before anyone cries foul I just figured that was the way it was supposed to work and that I would need to build some xp before I tried again). So...still might need to be looked at?

As far as the spell wearing off...I think that having a big scary critter going hostile as soon as they rest is challenge enough. :) If there were a way to make it only target the caster of the spell if released would be good.

Questions: If one person has dominated a high-level undead and another caster casts control undead can they steal it from the first caster? What's the DC calculation look like?

What's the ruling about using high level undead in a raid? If the controller is killed in the raid, the monster is set loose, swinging at raider and defender alike. XP loss will be a real risk to raiders, and I don't expect either party to stop swinging to protect the other from the rogue undead.

...more questions after some coffee...


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 Post subject: Re: Undead Control
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:02 am 
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I have changed this feature slightly. More adjustments to come.


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 Post subject: Re: Undead Control
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:05 am 
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Apok please explain how you changed it.... we as players need to know if its going to cause xp loss or not.

Please give further detail on changes, and i am sure a change log entry is coming but can you post it here aswell?


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 Post subject: Re: Undead Control
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:40 am 
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Lord DM Supreme
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if your taking a corpse reaver to a raid....you might as well slap a ban sticker on your butt. you know you might die, you know if you do that thing is gonna start way laying ppl. i know i know, its not possible to raid a city without a lvl 40...but there are lowbies that inhabit cities that would get caught in the crossfire.

those powerful undead are in the zones they are for a reason...to protect people from them that have no chance against them at all. if your bringing one into the realm of the little ppl, your taking it upon yourself to redesign the mod in a way that could mess a persons day up.

dc calculations are being refigured...controlled undead that are released is being refigured....once all these things are set out so they can work in harmony, we'll let you know the details jean.

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 Post subject: Re: Undead Control
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:52 am 
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Or simply make it so the control only lasts while you're in the area's the undead naturally spawn in (so hod undead stay in HoD, regardless of it being controlled)

Though id still say it would be funner and more satisfying for the players if the controled could be treated as normal, no-xp-loss-on-death by them summons, and if the undead immediately died apon their control's loss of control (death, dispell, rest, log out, ect)

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